Curse

Sixty · Feb 07, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

In general, sundering mods are bad. They provide very little benefit in comparison with other mods. First of all, there are only two classes that can even use a sundering mod: the ranger and the warrior. So, in order to explain how other mods can be better for you, consider this:

Q: Why do you use a sundering mod on a warrior or ranger?
A: To increase your DPS, of course.

Now, if you wanted to take this from a technical standpoint, you can. Since an axe or sword attaks a 1.33 second attack rate. With a perfect sundering modification, a perfect +35% ideal axe will only increase the average dps 0.293 (against an unbuffed 60 armor target). For that extra 0.293 dps, you're spending a large sum of gold for that modification.
On the other hand, you can equip zealous modification for superior energy management. With 1 pip of energy regeneration and with 1 hit for every 1.33 seconds, you'll have around 1.08 energy per second. So, if you used that ~1 eps or so to fuel, say, frenzy, you would have a 33% damage increase, taking your DPS up to 32.6.
Now, assume, you didn't want to use your energy skills. You want to run some sort of warrior loaded up solely on adrenaline skills. First of all, that's a bad idea - using frenzy can easily help your dps better than a sundering. So, compare this to other mods:
Using an elemental mod, you can negate other warriors' +20 armor bonuses, which turns that 100 armor to 80, so you'll be causing another 25% damage.
If you didn't want to do that, saying you won't be able to kill rangers well, then you can also use a vampiric weapon. A vamp will increase your dps to 25.91, with five damage per hit armor-ignoring.
Finally, people think that their sundering mod will help their damage against a higher-armored target, such as a warrior. Well, so what? With your 10% sundering mod, your DPS will be increased by just .207 to just 11.127. A vampiric mod, however, will cause 10.92 DPS plus 3.76 from the vampiric mod, for a total of 14.68 DPS. Finally, using an elemental mod against a warrior target will cause your DPS to be 15.44 against that warrior. Your zealous mod will give you 16.3 DPS. Looking at those numbers, even against higher armored targets, sundering mods can provide less benefits than any other mods, except perhaps furious and elemental (in the case that it's not against a warrior.
When you look at these numbers, you come up with this:
22.133 DPS against a 60 armor target with a 10% sundering mod.
21.84 DPS against a 60 armor target with a zealous mod, but you gain around 1 energy per second (including energy regen), and frenzy can be used to kick up your DPS to 32.6. In addition, using frenzy will increase your DPS further.
Even an elemental damage mod will increase your damage better, with a 25% bonus damage on a warrior.
A vampiric weapon will give you -1 health degeneration but will increase your DPS to 25.91, but will give you 5 health per hit.

Finally, sundering is the most expensive of them all. A sundering mod will cost tens of plat, while a zealous mod will be a could plat at most, and elemental mods are mere hundreds. A perfect vampiric may cost 20-30 plats or so (not sure; it's been months since I last played pve) at the most.

Hopefully this post will help the mistaken GW players that are intent on using their sundering mod. All numbers were taken using the GW damage calculator and the built-in computer calculator.

Lt.Crumpet · Feb 08, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

ok A: you rock. number crunchers are just plain frikin cool.
B: dont kno ( and im too lazy to look ), but i THINK this may have been addressed before. not to rain on your parade tho, good job with all that.
thanks from us all

unienaule · Feb 08, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

21.84 DPS against a 60 armor target with a zealous mod, but you gain around 1 energy per second (including energy regen), and frenzy can be used to kick up your DPS to 32.6. In addition, using frenzy will increase your DPS further.

Is it just me, or did you mention frenzy twice? Other than that, good job.

Ristaron · Feb 08, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

unienaule beat me to saying it, so I'll just pass on my congratulations and spare you the critisism.

LifeInfusion · Feb 08, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

I always knew sundering was useless and only good for selling so that you can buy 6 vampiric and other mods :P

linkid · Feb 08, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

I don't really know how sundering mods work, but you need to correct the zealous mod:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty

On the other hand, you can equip zealous modification for superior energy management. With 1 pip of energy regeneration and with 1 hit for every 1.33 seconds, you'll have around 1.08 energy per second. So, if you used that ~1 eps or so to fuel, say, frenzy, you would have a 33% damage increase, taking your DPS up to 32.6.

You gain 1 pip of energy degeneration, so you'll only gain 1 energy per 1.33 seconds (or 4/3) and lose 1 energy per 3 seconds. In a twelve second cycle, you will attack 9 times (gain of 9 energy) and lose 4 energy due to degen, for a net gain of 5 energy (assuming you hit every 1.33 seconds). 5/12 is 0.417, which is far off the 1.08 you hinted (which would be correct if you gained 4 energy in the 12 second cycle like you suggested). Still, I do agree the zealous mod is better than sundering in most cases. Frenzy can be used anyways and maintained without a zealous hilt (8 seconds, 5 energy, warriors gain 2/3 * 8 or 16/3 or 5.333 energy in 8 seonds without zealous). But then if you use frenzy why not use a zealous mod

Good point about the elemental hilts. You can always have 3 (collector) weapons, one with zealous, another with elemental, and one plain (or vamp/sundering) for maximum effects of each.

What I haven't been sure about is the "armor-ignoring" damage from vampiric weapons. If I put 0 points in axe and go up against let's say minotaurs, I only see -1s and -2s, although I have a 3/1 vamp mod. Maybe it does 3 extra damage that's not shown, but I've never been entirely sure about it. Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty

A vampiric weapon will give you -1 health degeneration but will increase your DPS to 25.91, but will give you 5 health per hit.

If you're talking about axe or sword (1.33 second attack cycle), it is only 3 health per hit max, which would change the math (again).

VGJustice · Feb 08, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

linkid, don't forget that with a Zealous mod, you gain energy one every hit. So, if you use a skill like Hundred Blades or Cyclone Axe, then the energy regen increases dramaticly.

Nit picking aside, nice work debunking the Sundering Mod with your l33t uber math skilz0rs. /clap

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 08, 2006, 06:51 AM // 06:51

I think the article need a bit mroe organization.

From the start, I assume he talk about axe differences, yet near end he wrote "5 health per hit" (only hammer and bow is 5 /1). Then what happen in between? Was those all hammer or bow's DPS?

Other than that, nicely put.

Savio · Feb 08, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty

So, if you used that ~1 eps or so to fuel, say, frenzy, you would have a 33% damage increase, taking your DPS up to 32.6.

Frenzy would make it 50% more damage. The increase in speed is in seconds per attack, not attacks per second. The game's funny like that.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=114209

Quote:

Using an elemental mod, you can negate other warriors' +20 armor bonuses, which turns that 100 armor to 80, so you'll be causing another 25% damage.

It's not 25% more damage.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Quote:

A perfect vampiric may cost 20-30 plats or so (not sure; it's been months since I last played pve) at the most.

10-15k; prices tanked because idiots want Sundering instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by linkid

5/12 is 0.417, which is far off the 1.08 you hinted (which would be correct if you gained 4 energy in the 12 second cycle like you suggested).

He's talking total energy regen. Normally a Warrior has 2/3 energy per second. 1/3 more energy per second, or one more pip, isn't too bad, especially with area attacks like Cyclone Axe.

Still, I do agree the zealous mod is better than sundering in most cases. Frenzy can be used anyways and maintained without a zealous hilt (8 seconds, 5 energy, warriors gain 2/3 * 8 or 16/3 or 5.333 energy in 8 seonds without zealous).

Quote:

But then if you use frenzy why not use a zealous mod

Because I'd be using Vamp then.

Quote:

Good point about the elemental hilts. You can always have 3 (collector) weapons, one with zealous, another with elemental, and one plain (or vamp/sundering) for maximum effects of each.

1. Sundering is crap. Don't even suggest it.

2. There aren't collector 15^50 axes or swords, and only a craftable 15^50 sword at Drok's.

Quote:

What I haven't been sure about is the "armor-ignoring" damage from vampiric weapons. If I put 0 points in axe and go up against let's say minotaurs, I only see -1s and -2s, although I have a 3/1 vamp mod. Maybe it does 3 extra damage that's not shown, but I've never been entirely sure about it.

It's shown as +3 health on you on your end, and to your enemy they take an additional -3 damage (Life Steal). It's not damage per se; try hitting someone with Mist Form with a vamp weapon, or watch a person taking damage from Warriors in Observer mode.

striderkaaru · Feb 08, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

you forget to mention one more reason why sundering mods suck:
idiot sellers who put perfect sundering on a weapon and expect you to pay an extra 60k when all you want is the base weapon.

fiery · Feb 08, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

sundering on a bow negates the resistance through a elemental armor,damage through smiting, and not through piercing attacks i think.

BBoy_Manchild · Feb 08, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

i think he just pulled numbers out of his butt, but hes right in that sundering is garbage, it just comes as common sense to me, dont need a flow chart and a bar graph to show me what i have known through good ol' experience

Hyunsai · Feb 09, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Always thought sundering was garbage the first time someone explained me what it was...
And when I think of the price of this, I always roll on the floor...

Destruction Exile · Feb 09, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

all mods besides Vamp and aderline are pretty useless.
All you need is a weapon with 15% base and your pretty much good to go. Even modding it with the 20% plus is more useful than that.
People worry too much about the skin, but seriously...some might think is not even worth that much. Just because some people thinks that skin are important doesnt mean others will. Meaning if some1 called some1 eles a newb for not paying the C/O price, then screw it.

The Real Roy Keane · Feb 09, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

I've always been torn between Vamp and Furious(with a Zealous for switching of course.)..how about a thread comparing the merits of those 2 eh?

Esrever · Feb 09, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Vamp wins. The extra damage it puts out beats Furious by a long shot.

BBoy_Manchild · Feb 09, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

i use furious when farming against groups with less numbers then bon defense adrenaline number, never lets me down, even though its only 10%

fallot · Feb 10, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

I use Sundering on my PvP bows frequently when I dont want elemental damage, a vampiric or a zealous weapon

Poison Ivy · Feb 10, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

All I wanna say is that if anyone reads this thread, it's one less costomer for my max Sundering upgrades !

Ninjutsu Honor Code · Feb 10, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Max sundering is 10% right chance of that happening is super low you can compare it to hitting when your blind...